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PODCAST EPISODE 9
Comparing Singapore and Australia’s education systems and how to teach critical thinking
December 6 2024
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Dr Timothy Tan is the founder of Square Academy – a boutique and unique tuition business in Hawthorn. Tim’s philosophy is that learning should be fun and real education should be enjoyable, inspiring and purposeful.
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PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Transcript
Crystal: Do your children go to school in Melbourne? Are you interested in how their school might be shaping them for the future? I’m Crystal, a regular Melbourne mom interested in all things to do with schools. In this podcast, I want to talk to the people in the education system in Melbourne including parents, students, and maybe even some principles to get a better understanding of what goes on in schools and how they’re shaping our kids. It’s time to go to school on the Melbourne Schools podcast.
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Crystal: Hi parents! Today we’re joined by Dr. Timothy Tan, the Visionary founder of Square Academy. Tim’s journey is inspiring – accepted into vet school at Cornell University, turning down the offer and becoming a marine biologist and published researcher instead. He later discovered his passion for Education while earning his PhD at Melbourne uni with over a decade of teaching experience, including mentoring thousands of students. Tim is dedicated to Innovative interdisciplinary teaching. Tim is an advocate for real education that is exciting, inspiring, and purposeful. His education philosophy involves teaching his students to be creative and learning to think rather than learning just for the sake of exams. Now as the head of Square Academy in Hawthorne, Tim combines his expertise and passion to help students excel in critical thinking and academic success. Hello Tim!
Tim: Hello, thank you for the very nice introduction.
Crystal: You’re welcome, you’re welcome. I hear that before so that’s very nice thank you. So just launching right into it, can you tell us a bit about your Early Education because I do wonder where your beliefs of Education come from? It’s quite interesting to me that you started schooling in Singapore.
Tim: I don’t really grow up wanting to be a teacher I guess. So I’m from Singapore. I grew up most Asian students in Singapore I guess. I went to a decent school. I didn’t really study that much. Singapore schooling is pretty taxing and very the schooling that most people would be used to right just academically based and that stuff.
And I didn’t do particularly well. I played a lot and everything so I didn’t really do that well until later on when I decided to focus a little bit more on my studies and then I end up doing better. I came to I always enjoyed doing science, animals, zoology, marine biology and so I did our version of VCE I guess I did basically your general paper which is English and then triple science so physics chem and biology.
I science and I did pretty well and I came to Australia after year 12 because I really wanted to do marine biology and that’s not really the thing that you can do in Singapore. Singapore has good universities but from what I researched back then the universities, the marine biology course in Singapore is one unit right as opposed to a full degree over here.
I came, my parents weren’t too excited about doing science or zoology or marine biology. They wanted me to be a doctor right. I wasn’t really fond of humans which is ironic given that I teach now but then how about you do vet instead it’s almost a doctor so I was okay I guess that’s alright and so I enrolled in I got into the Bachelor of veterinary science this was at Melbourne uni this was an undergraduate degree.
And when I enrolled in it I got the idea that I wanted to do a double degree instead. I didn’t want to just do veterinary science. I wanted to do a science degree with zoology and Marine Biology as well because the veterinary science degree was mostly focused on companion animals basically dogs and cats and everything and farm animals which and I was really more interested in exotic wildlife and stuff.
So yeah sorry that was way off topic so you asking for my I can remember a lot so that’s okay so my education in Singapore basically is pretty standard I guess.
Crystal: Oh really well that’s interesting because we coming from Australia and being educated in Australia I don’t know what a standard Singapore education is and we hear so much about it. It feels almost aspirational education system for Australia and I hear it talked about in the group all the time so that post about how the education system in Australia is broken I find it really interesting because I wondered it for a long time. You hear people talking about it all the time. The Australian education is so far behind and we’re just basically Australia is lucky and dumb basically is what they’re saying and that’s why we’re doing so well and compared with places China Singapore Hong Kong Japan Korea basically all the Asian countries where kids are made to sit exams from the time they’re in nappies and they do tutoring. I know people who do this they do tutoring to 10:00 at night after school and then they go to sleep and they wake up and do it again the next day every day whereas the education system in Australia is obviously much different from that my questions are to what end does it make Society what happens after school does it make Society better when you grind that much in childhood when you cause it is a sacrifice of time isn’t it you sacrifice basically your entire day every day to academic Pursuit?
Tim: Most people would rather be doing something else.
Crystal: What is the point?
Tim: By what measure would you say that it is bad or broken I expect that the measure is basically academics so in terms of if you made Australian students and Singapore students or whatever the same test at the same age or whatever it is could they answer more questions the Singapore students Right which potentially yes they can answer more questions they can answer more difficult Singapore students yeah right but then what that’s question and the reality is anecdotally right most people who are adults will agree that a lot of what they studied right in school was not very useful.
Crystal: Yeah that’s true.
Tim: Some parts would be useful sure I know and so if some part are useful fine right but a lot of the nitty-gritty detail is not very useful because you won’t go into that field so I guess my thought would be if the nitty gritty detail is not that useful then why aren’t we focusing on the big picture questions will always be useful. The stuff that I taught my students I think it will always be useful and so why aren’t we focusing on that first and then if you time left over then do the detail I guess but I think the reality is that it’s a lot easier it’s more reassuring to just put a number on it right it’s an A right how do you get an A+ or it’s an 80 how do you get a 90 that’s a very Asian way of thinking.
Crystal: Oh well okay how come you didn’t get an A+.
Tim: Asians you got 98 how do you get a 99 right.
Crystal: Yeah exactly why is it not 100 what?
Tim: So it’s easier to do that right just the same way it’s easier for universities to grade students the same way it’s easier but the reality is in the workplace they don’t hire you based on your results they don’t hire you based on oh you’ve got 98.5 ATAR instead of 99.75 so I’m going to pick you instead or whatever it is they don’t doesn’t work that way and in fact I’d argue that in Singapore they’re actually adopting the western style of more play based stuff.
Crystal: Are they trying to do this?
Tim: Yeah so The Grass Is Always Green on the other side they’re actually trying to well look at the Australian education system it’s so much better.
Crystal: Yeah that’s weird the early levels right?
Tim: Because you realize as well that what’s the point of going through rigorous or whatever in school or whatever it is and so they’re trying to do a bit more play based. I hear that there’s quite a bit of demand for people who are educated in Australia in education in Australia to go back to teach or something that’s what I hear.
Crystal: Yeah I wonder why are they realizing there’s something amiss with such a rigorous education system because I do hear that a lot as well people coming over from Asia and going I don’t want to put my kids through what I went through in Singapore and coming here because of that because it is less rigorous because it is play based does the Singaporean does Singaporean Society look at Australia and go oh maybe we should do it more them?
Tim: That’s possible again of course I don’t know what the policy makers think guess but in general there is I think it’s quite common I would say I’m not sure if it’s fact or anything but I think it’s common perception that things stress levels even depression suicide all that stuff in Japan Singapore that’s fairly well documented it’s higher than in Western countries of course Western countries also struggle a lot for different reasons I think.
Crystal: Yes I think different reasons but not purely because if you don’t get into a uni or don’t get in this course then your life is over.
Tim: Obviously people here also struggle with mental health and everything but I guess the way I see it academics is important it’s useful right and you can teach it I’m not saying just play and don’t do anything else I think it’s you need to have a very good balance and if you are skilled at teaching then you can incorporate that fun in with the learning and again how efficiently do people teach right if you’re just going to deliver a class that’s just reading of a script or whatever then obviously it’s not going to be as efficient as someone who actually knows how to teach or to engage with students.
Crystal: Yeah do you think that your this philosophy about being engaging and creative and also inter interdisciplinary teaching do you think that stems from what you experienced from your Early Education or where do you reckon that philosophy comes from?
Tim: That’s a good question I think I didn’t find my education basically grade one to grade 12 I didn’t find it that honestly I don’t have many wow memories I can’t say that it was great and all that stuff I was often stressed I guess for tests and all that things so I I but I don’t think actively hated it it was what it was what you knew.
Crystal: I think probably just what you do as a kid a lot people still feel that way right they just don’t.
Tim: To some extent when you’re there you well this is what’s just what life is right.
Crystal: Yeah.
Tim: So it was really after I started teaching myself that I learned how to teach through teaching because I was in when I was doing my PhD I was doing a lot of teaching on the side right to uni students and lot of practicals and all that stuff I learned I’m not an extrovert by any means I’m very introverted and when I first started teaching is quite daunting and you learn and after a few years I was really it grows you as a person as well when you teach I’m sure every teacher can tell you that but also I learn what works and what doesn’t work right and I’ve never really been afraid to challenge whatever the norm is I always ask so why are you doing this why why are we doing this way why can’t we do it some other way or whatever it is I just don’t really assume stuff too much and so that naturally helped me to try different things and see what works and I guess I found the most impactful moments were the ones that were not really about academics and that’s where I got my passion from.
Crystal: What do you mean by that what do you mean by that the most impactful moments?
Tim: When I was tutoring at University I would run classes right so tutorials a regular class 30 people whatever it is and obviously I teach them I was this was mostly biology and so obviously I taught them biology but I think the ones that I if you have to look at things that people have wrote about me when they wrote they the stuff that’s on my website and everything that’s not the testimonials.
Crystal: Yeah I mean yeah.
Tim: And it’s not really testimonials it’s more these just things that people have said to me right so I didn’t ask them to say anything or whatever it is they just sent me an email or whatever it is and so it comes over and over again it’s not oh thanks to you I learned how the respiratory system works whatever I obviously help with that but it’s really the impactful moments the moments we were talking about okay so one of the tutorials obviously formally we were supposed to talk about I think this was about epidemiology so how diseases spread basically so that was the topic for the week I guess roughly although we’ve got quite a lot of freedom to do what we want so I actually spent half a tutorial just doing my own stuff I actually said okay well I’m going to show you this couple of videos right and I want you to as you watch the videos think about this question right think about this question why do you want to be a doctor these were biomedical students so these are all cream of the crop 99.95 ATAR students very bright and everything right and so I asked so why do you want to be a doctor right.
Tim: And how many students can actually answer that right it’s actually not for the prestige and the money yeah right.
Crystal: My parents told me to yeah exactly.
Tim: Right exactly so I shown a couple videos and these videos were about I think there was one video about someone who was I can remember what the other videos I think one of the videos that was more impactful was really about this leper colony in Thailand and they showed this leper Colony these people who have limbs that are chopped off because of leprosy to stop the disease spreading testimonies of elderly women who had to chop their own fingers off because they just couldn’t stop hurting and all that stuff and so at the end of the videos I asked so okay why do you want to be a doctor right is it because your parents ask you to is it because you think that it’s what smart people do is because you want to be rich and famous is it because for one thing a lot of those reasons are not really genuine if you really wanted to earn money being a business person or something probably earns you more money or trade even to be honest how much trades earn in general right but.
So I asked them that right so is that the reason why right or is it because you want to help people right is it because what is going to really give you value purpose in life and actually I told them I was going to do that tutorial the first time I was going to do that that morning it was very cold it was winter in Melbourne I was walking to UNI I was walking to the train station in Flinders in uni and I remember it was very cold because I had gloves on those fingerless gloves on and I was still putting my hands in my pocket I remember that and as I walked I saw a homeless person.
I saw a homeless person and he didn’t have gloves on his hands and he was and people walking past right most people do because it’s awkward you don’t really know how to relate to homeless people in a sense and they mostly ignoring him and as they were ignoring him this homeless person was saying to everyone oh have a nice day have a good day stay safe keep warm and these were people who and these people ignoring him right and he’s a homeless person and this homeless person actually touched me he actually made an impact in my life and he’s a person without a home right because it made me think about why I’m doing what I’m doing why to be grateful and all that stuff all stuff and by extension that person also impacted the lives of a lot of my students hundreds of my students because I told the same story to hundreds of my students right.
And so if a person without a home can make an impact in life in so many lives even my was supposed to be oh I’m a doctor and all that stuff then you can make an impact if you wanted to if you want to help people you can you don’t have to be a doctor you don’t have to be anything else you can still help people I’m not saying don’t be a doctor I’m saying that if you focus on what’s really important I feel in life then things will be a lot easier things will be a lot more fun things will you don’t stress as much and you do better as well right and I made a post before about how you actually do better if you are not stressed and so I things right my students actually that’s what they remember if they think of me that’s what they remember they don’t think of all the academic stuff that I taught them I teach them lot of skills lot stuff as well but that is what they remember and so over time I see that happening over and over and over again and I realized that’s actually what kids need to learn I guess.
Crystal: Okay yeah that’s interesting so how do you how do you weave it into your interdisciplinary teaching how do you weave these life lessons into say because what you’re offering is biology and chemistry but then you also teach.
Tim: I mean I taught that during a biology class so that was a biology class right I just basically I taught them what they need to know and then I took half a class out and I told them okay I’m going to do something else today right want you to think about this question so you can weave it in right and I think that’s really why forming connections is important I think I go as far as to say that I think maybe it’s controversial or something but I think that the concept of subjects is a bit outdated the idea that you’re studying chemistry or biology or anything else it’s a little bit outdated I mean you can study it it’s fine not problem but that’s not what I think students really need to learn I think what students really need to learn is how to make connections between different ideas I think it was Steve Jobs that says that creativity is just connecting things and the people who really make big changes in life in society are the ones who can come up with new ideas not the ones who just follow whatever they boss saying right.
Nowadays even with AI you don’t even need people for that you just get someone to do it right so in the past right if you’re talking about 150 years ago right without internet without everything else then if a famous lecturer comes to your University or something there’s no email there’s no whatever it is being there is the one chance that you get physically to actually listen to what the guys to say pretty much right I mean in that context that makes sense that makes sense that okay you need good students you need keep quiet because the guy is there only for a short time if you interrupt him if you whatever you’re just wasting everyone’s time right but that’s not the case anymore right but we still teach that right it shouldn’t be one person just talking and everyone else just absorbing my Brilliance or whatever that it should be more collaborative and in the past there was a demand for very highly educated people in very specific jobs but I think honestly the demand for that has largely dropped off I mean there are a lot of people who can’t find jobs and all stuff it’s evolving I would say right so economy is evolving society is evolving and the skills needed are different but I don’t feel the education is really evolving along with it I mean it’s a big system so it’s slow it’s bureaucratic so it takes time but I think a lot people still don’t really realize that it needs to change which is a bit of a problem.
Crystal: So what do you think are the skills that are required for the future then so what if it’s not that then what is it now?
Tim: I’ve made no secret that I really appreciate I really value integrity and what people call soft skills but it’s not soft skills I mean again it’s soft because they consider academics as the hard skills right so but I think Integrity is important I think a lot of the problems we talk about bullying we talk about Injustice all that stuff right that’s because we teach our students to compete with each other and fight for the top spot and we value academics and everything and then you wonder why when they grow up they start being Cutthroat whatever job they’re in that right so to me it’s things well critical thinking is important I mean in terms of I guess academic skills critical thinking is important creativity is important in terms of human skills to me it’s compassion Integrity communication discipline.
Crystal: Discipline so how do you teach that creativity and what was the other one you said create what was the first couple creativity and critical thinking yeah how do you actually teach that?
Tim: If you think about it universities should be doing that right I mean the idea you go to university and you’re supposed to think about okay actually not from my experience yeah.
So that’s a whole another issue right about some the problems that universities have but even in the classroom even before University and everything I think that should be taught but it’s often I don’t know maybe it’s easier it’s easier to just say just listen to me right.
Crystal: Yeah that’s what my education I feel my entire education was that this is what you need to learn you go away and learn it.
Tim: Yeah exactly so how do you teach critical thinking and creativity so which is why I say partly Integrity is important right because if you are if you’re not teachable if the teacher themselves is not teachable if they are not willing to listen to other points of view for example then it’s hard to portray it’s hard to teach that in kids right and also because everyone’s flawed right so what I believe right now might not be might not be true or maybe I was mistaken whatever it is right I need to be willing to admit that okay yeah I was wrong right and if students ask me something or if they disagree with me I need to be able to say oh okay so tell me about why do you feel this way that’s interesting right and learn to say that instead of just being offended or.
Crystal: So learn not to shut it down basically not to shut down the critical thinking is part of teaching critical thinking is that what you’re saying?
Tim: Yeah exactly and but also that means that when I teach stuff or when I think about what my curriculum is I look for alternative points of view as well right so often part of being critical is you know critical sounds a negative word right but it’s more being thoughtful maybe right about what you believe in is knowing what other opinions are out there right knowing that okay so if I believe something would I be willing to say watch a video about someone who disagrees with that.
Crystal: Yeah.
Tim: And most people won’t right.
Crystal: I agree I completely understand right it’s you’re tired you don’t really want to do that stuff.
Tim: Most people prefer to live in an echo chamber.
Crystal: Yeah exactly.
Tim: Again that’s also obviously you don’t portray that view your disagreement in a very confrontational manner right you just you need to portray in a manner that other people who don’t agree with it can potentially accept if they have an open mind and so and also there’s a lot of problem with discourse in social media everything as well.
Crystal: I was thinking that too very Sensational it’s very it encourages that right encourages that persuasion at all costs basically.
Tim: Right so that’s what they teach in you they teach you how to analyze persuasion in English right and so doesn’t matter whether you use high modality coercion or bullying tactics or whatever it is it’s fine right as long as it works it’s fine right and so and it transcends to everything transcends into marketing transcends into business and everything else so even if people think that you’re a bad guy it’s okay as long as you make more money right if you all attention is positive right all attention is good doesn’t matter what attention it is and so I guess for me it’s about being conscious okay well always adopting that teachable mindset and then looking for new things to show people and that’s why I always learn new things right I’m always learning new things I encourage my students to learn new things as well right.
I think I mentioned before about some of the weekly insights that I get my students do and everything it’s really just picking something that you and then just writing about it and then I can okay why do you think this way and I can give them new idea and we spend time in class just talking about ideas and everything and they enjoy it they absolutely love it.
Crystal: Yeah that’s amazing that’s quite seems quite simple just talking about ideas but it’s amazing I just trying to think back into my education when have I ever done that before.
Tim: They might probably in some philosophy class or something maybe.
Crystal: Maybe in philosophy but I feel that should be the case all the time right.
Tim: Now of course I mean to be fair I think the reality is we part of a system where you’re encouraged to compartmentalize things into different subjects oh you only teach this year level or this subject or whatever right your expertise is in this area and so I think naturally that maybe disincentivizes or ill equips teachers to be able to think out the box right because they just since young right I mean since young you’re trained that oh this is math this is English this is whatever.
Crystal: Yeah.
Tim: And so but I’ve done lot of learning on my own in a sense because I’ve over time just realized that okay the thing that I enjoy learning now I enjoy learning more now than when I was in school.
Crystal: Which is because you have a choice surely because you have a choice now right of what you learn and how you learn whereas in school they told you what to learn and this is how you need to do and you need to be examined on it as well so I mean.
Tim: Yeah that’s true that’s true but I think it’s also the way they teach I guess right so I ask very even biology I ask very basic questions what is okay why why don’t you see very big cells right why are cells only limited by this small size right generally about 1 mm at the max right very very rare but usually at the max I think there some that are 1 millimeter but very very rare unicellular organisms are again unicellular might be big for a prokaryote anyway so but one but about that size right so what’s limiting that right and so even basic things this right that is the question that I think most people oh yeah why why don’t you see gigantic cells just walking around somewhere right what’s the limit and if you ask students that they probably can’t give you an answer because that’s not what covered they study cell biology no one told me why.
Crystal: So yeah yeah that would be how I would think these are the things that that are very interesting.
Tim: I find interesting things all the time really just about anything and so if education could be that it could be fun it could be purposeful it’s really asking very basic questions right this real life this is why don’t we see gigantic cells walking around everywhere so if we can teach this way and as far as I can tell my students really that sort of stuff then and I can see that a lot of students in general don’t school right and I think it’s a shame as well because even for say private school I mean even public school okay it’s free or mostly free fine but Public School lots of students pay a lot of money or parents I mean pay a lot of money for private school and they don’t really enjoy it right I mean maybe they enjoy it in primary school and then secondary school they just oh it’s okay have to get through it.
Tim: Yeah and then go to uni on top of that right and in other countries right students would love to go to school yes I routinely show my son as well right I remind him there are children in Afghanistan who are eight years old they make bricks all day long they when they ask them oh what do you wish what do you wish for they ask oh what is a wish they don’t know what a wish is right and then oh I wish I can go to school I wish that I can have a house right and and then here we are paying so much money for it and they not enjoying it right it’s a shame because and it’s not supposed to be that way I know because most Young children love to learn yes so to me that means something is wrong somewhere yeah.
Crystal: Yeah thanks Tim.
Tim: Thank you thanks see.
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Crystal: Thanks for joining me on this podcast. Remember that the content that you hear on this podcast is of a general nature and should not be used to make any decisions about schools or anything else. If you want to learn more about schools in Melbourne make sure you visit the website www.melbourneschools.com. You can also join thousands of other parents in our community at Melbourne schools discussion group on Facebook. See you there.
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